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« What Straight People Really Do Behind Closed Church Doors | Main | In Defense of Fred Phelps »

October 27, 2005

Comments

Loveandlight

Kudos to you for keeping an open mind about what's on this website. I mostly agree with it even if I think the webmaster needs to get a grip sometimes. And if you're going to e-mail Bill Weintraub, the webmaster, be warned that you will likely be personally attacked if you don't parrot his teachings exactly.

Oscar Moreno Vallejo

Thank you for your article Mr. Perez Its wonderful. The Man2Man Alliance sites are all about health and pleasure. Frot is clean hot and safe gay sex. Its exactly what we need. I am 26 but I have an active sexual and social life as a gay man since I am 14 ( My first boyfriend was 25) and in this 12 years I saw the death of 10 of my friends. 10. And I am 26. No straight person that I know has a similar experience. Bill Weintraub lost his lover and saw 200 men die.
I think that its perfectly healthy and reasonable to be upset about this. That's why we promote frot and criticize anal penetration. Nobody is attacking people's RIGHT to practice it but as you properly said it we challenge this sacred cow. There are no sacred cows. Anal penetration is not homosexuality. And Frot is the cheapest and most pleasurable anti-AIDS vaccine.

Steve

I've obviously come into this discussion a little late, but I felt I had to counter what appears to be an endorsement of a movement that in short, is a very homophobic, and regressive one that serves to create a culture of puritanical finger wavers.

The frot movement and Bill Weintraub really are not at all about trying to endorse an activity they find pleasureable. They may very well enjoy frot, and I support their strong voice in that regard. It is when that voice articulates some of the most self hating, vile, intellectually vacant, and ultimately regressive views that I will take offence.

Joe I find it interesting that the only nod you give to anything that may come across as I describe above, as no more than "some frot activists occasionally go overboard in their enthusiasm".

Did you read the website? Do you agree that feminine gay men are "bitchy empty shells of human beings that live only to bend over and take it up their mancunt like a bitch"? That is word for word from Mr. Weintraub off his site. A similar tone and style of language run through every post. I have a very hard time picturing you overlooking these not so subtle bigoted and presumptive views.

Cheers,

Steve

Joe Perez

Hi Steve,

I don't disagree with your criticisms of the frot site. What you said is true. There's some very disagreeable stuff there.

Consider that my column is limited to 1,000 words. I believed it was more important to communicate what I did about the frot movement rather than turn the piece into an attack on its flaws. I wouldn't say I "endorsed" the movement, but I would say that I encouraged men who find value in frot to check it out, and to be aware that there are some problematic aspects. I really do think they're onto some good work, and not just a bunch of loonies.

btw, I had a second column planned, and requested an e-mail interview with Weintraub. When he got my questions--most of which were very critical--he chose not to respond. Perhaps I'll revisit the subject in the future with a more critical focus. And so thanks for your feedback...

Joe

Darrell Grizzle

I'm a gay man whose body does not respond well to anal sex -- my prefered mode of sexual expression is frot and, to a lesser degree, oral sex. I'm glad Bill Weintraub is making more people aware of frot, but I'm deeply bothered by the vicious attitude he takes toward those who do engage in anal sex. He does NOT represent all of us who enjoy frot.

Steve

Joe,

Thanks for the timely response. It was refreshing to read your words, as I have read your work for some time, and an endorsement of this form of bigotry seemed to go against what you are about in both the affect and the intentions behind your written word.

I originally felt similar to yourself in so far as the regard that there is a certain denial of individuals who do not ascribe to the dominant gay cultural view. But the more I read, and the more I have had contact with the Frot movement, and here I speak of Bill Weintraub and his few very vocal memebers that provide the soundbites on all their "policy", the more I am convinced the intention is less than honorable.

Though I will say from that same contact, and from the above letter, most of the men who enjoy Frot as an activity, and not something they see as their nirvana, are everyday gay men who simply don't have an interest in anal sex. They need to be suopported on that issue, I agree.

Sincerely,

Steve

Joe Perez

Good comments... I'd love to see a really positive, healthy community that supported gay men in frot and promoted a frot lifestyle. I doubt that Weintraub's is the one, though, infected as it is with prejudices against those who disagree with their sometimes outlandish views. Still, there's always hope, so long as men can create fresh alternatives...

Mike

I have mixed feelings about Bill. I'm a gay man who loves frot and who just doesn't enjoy anal sex. Bill's site has done a lot of good in helping frot men find each other and to realize that we aren't alone. I don't know why gay culture prefers to pretend we don't exist, but I'm often bewildered by the hostility I sometimes (not always come across) when I say what I'm into.

However, I don't put down the men who love anal sex, and I have some dear friends who are femmy and/or drag queens. Bill has said some poisonous, hateful things about gay men who don't fit his concept of masculinity, and he's going to have to outgrow his venom if he's going to get anyone to listen to him. That said, I've noticed that he's radicalized over the years partly as a reaction to the gay press' general refusal to acknowledge the existence of frot men. If the gay press hadn't been so rude and vicious in the first place, I think Bill would not have become so venomous himself.

I have to disgree with the poster who says he attacks anyone who disagrees with him. I've argued with him in several e-mails, and his replies have been perfectly respectful.

Mike

I also just noticed that one of the posters here, Steve, ripped into Bill for being cruel. So then I check out Steve's blog and find out that he's considerably meaner, so I'm wondering where he gets off criticizing anything Bill does.

Al

As the co author of the website you refer to Mike, I have a hard time seeing how you view anything as "mean". If you refer to the articles Steve or I have written about the Frot movement, (not the act), then I would agree the opinions are strong. I would also offer that they are accurate.

My experience with Mr. Weintraub, along with Steve's, has been one that has shown him to be cruel, hateful,disrespecting of the inherent rights of others to engage sexually as they so desire, and manipulative with gross misuse of HIV statistics.

If Steve's responses are harsh, I suggest they need to be. It is interesting you feel the need to mention this on a site such as this one, however you seem to not be concerned enough to leave a comment on the site you thought was "mean". Interesting.

Al

Mike

I used the word "mean" because across several posts, Steve made very clear that he considers men who prefer frot to be regressive, self-hating and deluded. Come on, saying he almost threw up when a guy mentioned cockrubbing without preaching about it? That sounds pretty vindictive to me. He's letting his disagreements with Bill spill over into his opinions of guys who prefer frot in general.

And while I strongly disagree with some of the things Bill says, I can't help but think that Steve reacts so viscerally because temperamentally, they're very much alike. Sometimes they both remind me of my students screaming at each other.

Max

The problem with the B.W:s site is related to hes personality. Hes that type of human being that is not possible to take critics, in a human way.
Thats why other things he writes is anti-human.
Its a good thing to help frot-men find each other, ofcourse, but its too little done in other countries than u.s.a. Here in Sweden there are nearly no members at that site though there are many many men that like frottage.
One thought is, why do propaganda for a certain form of sex? People do that forms tyey like, due to their natural feelings.
That type of propaganda is stupid.
And that is too complicated for B-.W. to catch.
Bye

Don Musial

www.heroichomosex.org launched a liberating and truth-finding excursion for me. You have to get through some of the over-board stuff about warrior fighting and anal, but then you get to the real deal which is about fidelity and loyalty and real love.

How about living a heroic life? Our whole country could use some real heroes, people with moral courage. I was liberated from the banalities and superficialities for what passes as gay culture these days. It is time for another revolution, that truly helps men who sexually-emotionally love other men find an authentic spiritual path through life, not the wasteland, dead-end delusionary lifestyle that seems to be so prevalent for gay men.

As Bill says, "Think about it."

frotbro

A quick question Max. Why is it that when someone mentions gay men having sex, in the popular culture the first thing that pops into their heads is anal sex?

Why is is that when someone talks about a straight man enjoying anal sex with a woman, he sexually is suddenly brought into question?

The Idea of Anal sex as it relates to gay men is ingrained into the psyche of most people. That is a result of propaganda on the other side. Safe sex educator refusing to talk about any thing else but anal sex, "use a condom every time" campaigns as if every time you have sex it must include penetration. Gay publications the promotion of Lube and endless condoms. The censorship by the gay press of any alternative to anal sex.

When you ask someone what frot is they usually have no clue, that includes gay men and heterosexuals alike.

Is that fair and balanced? Is the frot movement releasing propaganda or are we just trying to be heard, when most people have no clue who we are.

You would think that gay men would be aggravated that whenever sex between them is mentioned it has the air of shit vaguely in the back of everyones mind. Gay men should really take that as an insult but instead they embrace it.

So when a man takes that idea as an insult, and tries to bang back against it with gusto he is automatically a propagandist.

You know Damn well that The idea of anal sex clouds out all other forms of sex, including Mutual Masturbation, Oral and Frottage in people minds.

I don't understand why you men can't be honest and admit that?

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