How far can tolerance go?

Revised Version

The term "tolerance" is a buzzword applied like a Band-Aid to religious fractures. How far can tolerance really go, especially with Religious Belief (A) directly challenges Religious Belief (B), beliefs held by two citizens of a freedom-loving democracy? I'm thinking of a concrete example which, naturally, originates from my experience.

I consider myself a "religious humanist", meaning that I do not automatically assume that religious expressions are invalid or untrue. At the same time, my focus is not the life after, nor Eternal Truths pointed to by scriptures, but the appropriation of these Truths in the present world. My parents and my sister are Christians. Of the born-again, evangelical, Reformed and Presbyterian sort. Most people would apply the term "fundamentalist" to them, but that would be unfair. They simply believe that God has spoken to his people through the Bible, and that certain things, like the resurrection, atonement, and the incarnation, are True.

Because my stance towards assertions of Truth is skepticism, open-ended inquiry, and (I hope) a touch of humility, I can do nothing more honorable towards them but to respectfully disagree based on my present understanding, and seek to understand their perspective.

Because their stance towards assertions of skepticism is a prayerful desire to change the skeptic's heart, a dutiful (and joyful, they would say) bondage to the Word of God, and a humility grounded in the Eternal Truth given to them by God, they can do nothing more honorable towards me but to respectfully disagree, pray, and seek to convince me otherwise.

There are some differences between the way my parents and my sister live these beliefs in relationship with me, perhaps due to the fact that parents will always be parents...and disagreements in "lifestyle" are more threatening personally.

However, several months ago, I went to the East Coast to visit my parents with my (same-sex) partner. Recognizing that this would be difficult for them, and trying to honor their beliefs, I approached them first through a preparatory email, then through a phone call. What do you think about this? How do you feel? I was not going to budge on the fact that I am in relationship with my partner, just as my father is with my mother, and vice versa. There are times for solo visits, but at some point, you've just gotta meet the family.

They offered us two rooms.

In justification, my father said it would have been the same if it were Sally or Sam. I wasn't going to engage in sinful activity under their roof, was the message. This was to be my act of respect towards their beliefs.

I refused, and we spent the weekend camping instead--but met them for an afternoon.

There were a few reasons for my decision:

1. It is not true that it would have been the same if it were Sally or Sam. Had I been "living in sin" with a "Sam" I'd have the option for state-recognized marriage. If I and this "Sam" were to obtain a marriage certificate, even if not through clergy, or through a pagan shaman, my parents would have allowed us a single bed.

2. Is the biblical injunction (read from their tradition) against homosexual relationships merely against conjugal acts? Suppose that "Sally" and I were to sleep in the same bed, but not have intimate relations. Would that be legitimate? And if the answer is no, then what is the difference between lying next to one another while sleeping and lying in separate beds while sleeping? In separate rooms?

3. Finally, if their concern was "the appearance of evil", I doubt if any neighbors would know whether "Sally" and I shared sleeping arrangements or not. Or for that matter, I doubt if any neighbors would even know that I was visiting--or if they were, what my relationship with "Sally" is.

These concerns imply that I think my parents' beliefs are inconsistent.  Well, yes, and more.  I may want to think that the real reason they didn't want us sharing a room was for their own peace of mind, fronted by spirituality.  But couldn't they accuse me of fronting sin and rebellion with "tolerance"?  Ascribing intentions to other people's beliefs is a tricky matter, as are accusations of inconsistency.  But shouldn't I be tolerant for their beliefs, whether coherent or not?  Actually, I was tolerant--to the point of not challenging them, and ducking conflict through setting up a temporary shelter miles away from their house.

Is that what tolerance is?   If simple "tolerance" doesn't work in familial tensions, it is bound to flounder upon more complex relationships.  Yet challenging the presuppositions and logical inconsistencies of another's viewpoint requires not only a working knowledge of logic, but a relational base upon which to build the discussion, and a knowledge of the other's beliefs from the inside-out.

Thanksgiving is coming up, and my family may be getting together to spend a vacation on the beach in South Carolina.  I've been told that it may be best, because of "stress", if I came alone.  That could be true.  That statement seems to reveal an underlying belief: that my relationship is primarily a sinful and embarrasing stress-inducer.  But again, such ascriptions of belief rarely tell the whole story.  Like any other family, we have "stress-inducers" that are not related to my rejection of Christianity, or my lesbian partnership.  So while I may suspect these motives, and perhaps take steps in my relationship to understand them, what I am bound to act upon are my family's words and actions.

This implicit belief of my family's directly challenges my belief that my relationship is primarily healthy, a god-send and worthy of respect.

I may feel, therefore, that their words and actions challenge my belief that my relationship is good, and worthy of respect.  And perhaps they do.  But perhaps, also, they feel that my words and actions challenge the goodness and worthiness of their own beliefs.  It's a difficult and vicious circularity in these conflicts.  The only way out is to cease ascribing hidden intentions towards one another, and instead asking for those intentions to be revealed.  That is hard--it requires talking in ways that make me (and I'd guess, my family) feel vulnerable, ready to be rejected at my (their) core at the next sentence.  It requires being willing to know when to hold my peace and respect beliefs which I may disagree with, or hold to be inconsistent.  And knowing when it is respectful of the other to challenge preconceptions, and seek to find more common ground that we didn't know existed before.

So, do I tolerate this challenge?  Or respond with my own?

My first challenge, then, is to talk with my parents about how their request for separate rooms made me feel, rather than allow this forum be a place for justification and release.

(Cross-posted at www.TalkHumanism.com.)

Comments

[gene taylor]

It is the things we do not do that lead us to regret?
Being happy doesn't mean everything's perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond and overlook the imperfections!
No God or entity can promise days without pain, or all laughter without sorrow or,
All sun without rain, But you were bred with a conscious and provided with ethics to provide comfort for the tears & have the smiles for as the way to show love somewhat for your comrades & neighbors far and abroad.

We live in an intimidating Brainwashed demented society.
We are manipulated by a labyrinth of fasciations and fables using pathetic myth logic therapy concerning religion nobility while trying to elude the romantic paradise that humans were created to enjoy by relying on their biotical genes of impulses and ancestral bred instincts. There are so many forms of brainwashed imaginary love but only romantic love makes the world regenerate. You don’t know about loneliness till you get shunned from love.
Do you know who or what you are? Do you really know about others?
There is no religious or congress or social brainwash that controls the ordinations drive born into us by nature.
There is the absolute positive and negative astounding element forces of nature that tap into our sixth sense.
Sex is the most taboo subject and most persecuted act and due to noble brainwash has caused a frigid and impotent society with mental and physical heath problem because so many cringe in the guilt fear of enjoying the most healthy mental and physical necessary relief to keep the human normal. Gays are considered demented by religious society and by so many jealous guilt trip persons that can’t enjoy any sexual outlets.
Here lately gays have been trying to gain some sort of control in society just like the black race did after the civil war plus all alien in USA. Gays probably are trying to evade their guilt trip by being recognized and accepted by society. The religious cults came to America so as to practice frigid impotent sex for breeding purpose only with an illusion of an imaginary spiritual ecstasy and by avoiding the sex guilt trip by claiming soul and spirit salvation. There was a time when religion was keep behind church doors and on their own territories and most noble ones think that gays would be better off behind closed doors and stay within their own class.
Now back to and about gay’s liberty. They probably haven’t noticed that even religion is not recognized by congress anymore. Nor are the rights for the non union working class...
But these sexual rights are not as important as the rape of income and living standards by congressmen, corporations and unions and the stock market.
Biology breading by nature may drive the orientation for straights or gays. There are no law rules that govern the passion between any two persons with awareness of chemistry desires for each other.
There is the absolute positive and negative astounding element forces of nature that tap into our sixth sense. There is no social brainwash that controls the sex ordinations drive born into us by nature.
1. Most believe that true homosexuals have been proven to be "born that way. A person has no choice of nationality race or creed.
2. This "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media that maybe true homosexuality really is an inborn and normal variant of human nature?
3. Others believe that male and female genes exist in both sexes and that during the widen of their horizons and the contact of ones that enhance them with their telepathic body and eye language and their power of suggestion sway them during their weak lonely moments caused by their lack of confidence with the non compatible opposite sex especially if they have been scorned by someone they adored. It is natural to desire to be needed and pleasing to be accepted.
It’s fairly evident that very few males and females are comparable or compatible.

2. And there are those that are bisexual that have had conduct with both sexes and find that sex is sex with any willing mate as long as one is aware of each others chemistry.

3. Then there are the very demented that have never had any contact to broaden their horizon and have no awareness of passion beyond their entrapment IQ.

4. And then there are the considered normal ones that are true religious noble that have never experimented or made any effort or had any desire to broaden their horizon straight or gay due to fear of a God. They refrain from sowing their seeds or wild oats and burn emotional inside with torment while seeking a spiritual climax by some unknown entity.

5. It would be wonderful if all the above could meet mates that had no brainwash traits outside of their personal values of ethics and could all be equal in imaginary desires.
But this is almost impossible and if one finds someone devotional they have to settle for whatever they can get from the ones they mate with because no two people ever stay on the same imaginary wave length as far as the desires and passions increase and decreases are concerned. The same o same o is boredom and only cowards stay noble to their commitments or ethics. The adventurous ones trying to broaden their horizon are aware of a purpose. All others are somewhat demented by fear of never being free of brainwash from others that lecherously want to control all others ethics.

6. We have the ones that rely on imaginary masturbation as to avoid any emotional rejection or take any chances on being disappointed by mates of any kind. They also refuse to offer love and cringe in fear.

7. And we have ones that mentally masturbate using fantasies even though and also even while they are with a willing mate.
8. Then we have the ones that live in fear and seek some climax with a Devine spirit in another universe or domain or dimension that will accept them after death and if they give up all human compassion traits of their mortal breeding.
So the average men and women will want to be and appear straight to remain noble in the eyes of their comrades and in doing this they chance at while appearing noble that they often wind up unhappily married and create children that wind up with broken homes before their coming out inbred sex drive takes over their mind and body commitments. These persons cause more welfare costs than true gays. So it is best that gays never marry for noble ego esteem virtues and eventually divorce under pressure by the opposite sex. Gays best be allowed to survive, work and live as gays and pay taxes. Wars were and are not fought for social conduct freedom but for congress control of position and plunder and rape of industrial and minerals and unnecessary taxes upon taxes into and for their noble created office personal salaries.
The social religion has caused many persons to never exploit and become themselves to avoid slander and persecution from the public. They are confused with guilt and are mortal cowards. Persecution is or has developed in jealous mankind just as the predator instinct from like as to the ego as to be the Lion and king of the jungle since prehistoric cave men days.
Yet most macho men and females also will openly feel justified to spend more time with the same sex in games and sports and avoid time with their marriage mates and feel noble and justified yet never enjoy their true desires to have sex with same sex because of their ego guilt fear of pride.
Even the very young males and females prefer to be together than to be with their opposite sex.
Then you have the macho lecherous guys that may mate with females and then leave them while thinking they are admired by other macho guys.
And we have the females that think they should mate the guys and use them as sugar daddies.
Even some gays and straights of both sexes have this sugar daddy theory.
But so many still try to be religious and or have noble pride from the brainwash that all should remain straight. The Bible quote about two men being in bed together at the end of time and that one will be taken and one left probably means that one is the lecherous conscious free sinner and one is the social brainwashed entrapment unaware victim. Or that one is true gay and the other a fake. Fakers are the major sinners in society of any position.
Society as a whole strive and try to abide by their noble commitment or position even though their ethics vary as the increase and decrease is exploited unto them because they have noble esteem determination...
But if you have awareness and can recognize the chemistry of people you will (even if you are gay or straight) be able to feel and see by persons body language and eye contact that they radiate and enhance the telepathic of their biotical impulses of their generic traits and that only certain ones can and will react to the chemistry that they favor for themselves. It takes two to tangle. The negative enhancement portrayed keeps only the fearful noble ones at a distance
And remember that there are also ones that will know and recognize your true traits.
Then we have so many of both sexes that are lecherous and love only themselves and have no respect for others ethics. Lecherous ones are aware of the unaware ones and take advantage as they fake nobility as in the rape of others emotions that are often demented and or just don’t possess awareness.
You are what you are. Any type of pretending is only a ruse that you try to portray. But your telepathic projection chemistry can be recognized by ones with awareness. There is no age of consent that can prevent the chemistry between two persons of any sex having awareness.
It’s not who you are but being what you are that is your personal salvation…
This is the mystery that the Bible never mentions. This awareness is your true salvation when you somewhat acknowledge the fact and true logic is that no God or Devine creator from another dimesion is listening to your prayers or has any judgment or control over nature bred biological calling by a young blossoming body’s normal sexual increase and decrease appetites that demands release by sex climaxes. Nor is there any spiritual bliss for or on your soul because you were bred only to be a mortal.
But you are blessed with a conscious that animals don’t possess.
Your conscious tries to help you avoid becoming too lecherous and or too compliant or vulnerable while trying to respect others imperfect brainwashed traits. Your social entrapment position doesn’t have to control you virtues. I wish the USA congress could abide or had abided by the sub conscious suggested virtues before they passed so many bills of law trying to control mankind in this land and provided amendants that invades this Garden of Eden paradise. Like the noble religious age of sexual consent and age of 21 to drink but let 18 year old fight and die for political causes. Do all these laws provide true freedom for each and all concerned?
Try to avoid becoming additive to suggested noble esteem vices or even religious scientology which is a interdimisional fable mystery that mankind imagines and may cause unnecessary mental torment if one tries to abide by social manifested brainwash causing guilt trips of impotence and frigid persons living in fear. Trial and error is the best way to learn knowledge.
You best not miss out on passion and the love thy neighbor that mortals were bred to enjoy by nature’s biological genes. Sexual response is natural and not animal. Accepting noble brainwash is the sin. It is morally considered noble to have straights married with the opposite sex. It is said that gays are only just sex partners. Note that there are more divorced straight couples that leave more children homeless that keep searching for just sex and feel justified that they carry no slander in the media. Why is this conduct allowed without being persecuted?
When and if you should somewhat experience the guilt trip. Don’t drive yourself crazy trying to imagine that you are spiritual going to live in the hereafter in a new dimensional universe with no sin or that you are above sin and try to make people believe you have been saved. You will go crazy within your own mind because you yourself will know better, just like the ones trying to sale you on this guilt trip. They mostly want to escape the facts and erase and deny ever being a sinner and appear holy to all others to gain vanity for their ethics in the eyes of their noble brainwash position. So very many use the Gods name in vain as falsely claim salvation as to find favoritism and positions among noble society or religious cults as they lecherously desire to be worthy of an after life…………
USA congress and society should note that; you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time.
USA symbols The Eagle is a predicator.
Germany swastika symbol A few gay symbols
The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for past centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (It even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BC.

So many people chose symbols as Idols over God

Cowardness is when one fears to broaden their horizons and withdraws into an orgy of frigid and become impotent using self imaginary brainwash for masturbations of their manifested myth and fables fantasies.
All mortals must have will power to manage the execution of their hallucination-illusions-delusions-dreams-imaginations-anticipations-sensations-fears of rejections and become able to admit love of or for others. One must show love to get loved in return.
An emotional rush can be achieved by various imaginational manifested masturbational of fantasies of thoughts during sexual mating or positions in society and even religious trances created by the imagination...
Now to achieve a mental sinless passion climax is the ultimate goal.

COPY CATS ARE ONES THAT DO LIKE MONKEYS SEE, MONKEYS DO>
If you were normal and healthy as a child you had a vivid imagination and played games of being the heroes or etc of your childhood days.
If you become an adult there were so many games you will or STILL will manifest while using your imagination.
Your mental pretend dream games are similar to self masturbation as you strive at trying to reach a climax for your personal esteem and satisfaction and this also includes a spiritual religious manifesting.
It may seem like a joke but even after becoming adult age you are subject to still rely on the dream world of your imagination. Do you really believe that some God can quiet the callings of your breeding purposes to maintain reproduction?
Do you know who I am?????? Do you know who you are??????
Why ask? Do you believe that everything you do or did seems or seemed like the right thing to do at the time?
It’s not who you are but what you are that are your true virtues. Are your obligations and entrapment satisfying or is it a conviction? Is justice a moral virtue that one must do that seems right at the time, or is it only a myth entrapment written document by noble ones imaginary fiction fables confusion true justice? The fiction writers and one’s that produce it contents are often misleading to real facts for mortal’s existence.
Was the stories of king rulers facts or fiction? Was the story of Jesus a myth or fable? Is the new released story of an Indian arrow head found inside a dinosaur fossil true? Did that prehistoric early mankind know of the story of the hereafter version now preached? Did prehistoric mankind have a soul or spirit or was they barbaric and still animals with no conscious? When did the conscious develop in mankind and how many may still have no conscious?
Moral virtues of justice are not the same as obligations or a noble commitment or position.
Reality and common sense can be altered by the position of the majority of prudes such as parents and persons having frigid fear about the unexplainable divine entity that created and was the manifest of all.
Try not to create an orgy in your masturbation of fables and myth ethics and try to avoid the hate climaxes of persecuting logic over your biotical impulses!!!!!!!!!!!
People want and should see you as kind, considerate, and understanding, forgiving and someone who will always cheer them up and help them out. Make an effort to always be interested about them and they will feel you are fresh, lively, charming, amusing, and practical. You should appear as someone who's attentive and considerate, and understanding but sufficiently well-balanced and will not to let it go to your head. You should remain discreet and not willing to participate with them or persecute against them because you know they are unaware of their social imperfect entrapment of life habits. Have faith and hope they will soon become aware and realize that you understand their ethics and actually know they are vain and lecherous for esteem virtues. Note that during your commitment they will continue to act as terrorists as to take advantage of your rights. This applies to lecherous ones including those using Gods name in vain that claim their virtues are self proclaimed religious conduct to retain social positions among their comrades.
You can hope that maybe they will somewhat become ashamed and show pity from the guilt fear of not being like you. Yes! The frigid social fear of not being loved keeps most from not giving love. The scorned think it noble to slander and hate to cover shame and self pity of feeling unwanted.
Being able to forget and not dwell of what is behind you yesterday and realize that it is history and this awareness is a form of forgiveness for all.
Yesterday does not exist and tomorrows contradictions are not always somewhat of a manifest as that can be arranged. Learn to roll with the flow and dodge around obstacles that offend your esteem values.

Don’t expect all sun without rain. You were bred with a conscious and provided with ethics to provide comfort for the tears & have the smiles for as the way to show love somewhat for your comrades & neighbors far and abroad.

Being saved or happy doesn't mean everything's perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond and overlook the imperfections! Becoming aware as to when to accept or decline the increase and decrease of your horizons. Consider when to or not to exploit of yourself.
You must accept that you are mortal and there is no dignity beyond the grave but try to obtain and receive the dignity for your ethics and esteem values for and by your comrades... Who or what if anything is going to meet you on the other side of the grave???
And realize that all mankind are not created equal in anything physical or with mental imaginations or their brainwashing acceptance.
A prayer spoken aloud is only as to impress your position with comrades………………
A prayer commitment to your conscious is more likely to be heard by your imaginary GOD if he exists in your conscious.
If you remember the civil war history and other past history of here and abroad and how the poor fight against their government policies then it seems logical that the terrorists might have been doing things for a good cause. And right now our politicians in power are actually terrorists against the working class and our conduct by providing an education as to create all mankind equal.
I personally can see that the time is near that our pheasants under USA rules will have to make a stand for their rights and become terrorists against out leaders in positions that are rapeing USA citizens of all conduct rights. Actually gays, aliens, religious cults etc are not any problem in USA unless they force their ethics on others. It is the laws and taxes of the syndicate congress that get paid to handle our priorities of necessary and unnessary tax investments properly...
Congress takes advantage of who they are and can prove and enforce that is what they are.
What they are is why they are there as in being who they are.
If our God and so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son up to die for our sin’s yet still create a Hell for ones that his son Jesus asked and quoted while dieing for mankind’s sins said and asked for to forgive them for they know not what they doeth. He manifested and created and at first said and saw that mankind was good then sent among this earth a angel that was once in heaven called Satin and place him among us and say that all who followed Satin ways would burn in hell. Why didn’t he send the devil to hell first if he loved mankind and had created them in his own image and if he really loved them? Why did he let a devil loose in our midst? Also he would have left that tree with the forbidden fruit out of the Garden of Eden. Yes there are many fibs in the Bible fable and myths. Only our conscious can guide our wisdom in logic.
If he didn’t want gays here then why did he create them? Mankind created congress and congress also promise a Garden of Eden but never provide it for the ones under their rule. Why can’t all alien countries love one another like brothers? It’s because all nations have Satin congressmen as rulers. No divine power has any control over the exploit of mankind any where on this world. The manifest of good and evil is caused and created by mankind and not some God or Devine power or a cast out of heaven Satin arch angle. Mortal mankinds are the ones to make the right or wrong choices. The very discreet have more knowledge than the lecherous ones seeking admiration. We can’t and are not all one race or color and we can’t all have the same imagination or be as one in manifestations by the call of nature by our breeding. But we can all have the same purpose as to allow each other the freedom as to be free to do and serve the purpose of love thy neighbor in brotherhood and do unto them as we would have them do unto us... It is most often the things we did not do that lead us to regret. ------ Any comment or debate can be e-mailed to --- ok7whatever@yahoo.com