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« Gay Frot: A Second Sexual Revolution? | Main | Interview with Scattered Words »

October 28, 2005

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Christine

Very good points. Thanks for articulating it so clearly.

Also, um...I think I have your old blog address. Super weird!

Christine

To clarify, I don't agree with all of what you say about the Bible or God, but I definitely agree with your thoughts about Fred Phelps and folks who say he doesn't represent their God without looking at what their Bible really says (at least in parts).

I'm clarifying because I have a lot of friends whose Christian faith is nothing like that of Fred Phelps or the Southern Baptists you're speaking of. I don't want to see them all painted with the same broad brush.

In fact, many of my good friends consider themselves to be both gay and evangelical Christians...

graham

Great stuff.

I have to say that I'm not "sickened" by the SBA distancing themselves from Phelps. I am perplexed, but also relieved. After all, maybe it will progress to them recognising aspects of what you've written here.

Truth be told, I prefer their hypocrisy to Phelps' truth-telling!

JOhn G

There is a lot of hate in the Bible. But to focus on it ignores the fundamental messages of the Bible. The Hebrew Bible/Old Testament contains many messages of God smiting and hating the enemies of his chosen people. This is part of the special call that the Bible shows that the ancient Hebrews had. They were tasked to create a just society. When they were succeeding, they prospered, and when they were falling short, they suffered. Its a message of soceital justice and not ignoring the oppressed. Compare the Law of the ancient Hebrews to laws from the time period in the ancient Near East. They're very similar, but the Hebrew equivalents do provide more protection for the accused, for the weak, and for those likely to be taken advantage of.

As for God hating gays in the Bible, I can hardly let that pass without mentioning that the Bible does not have to be read in an anti-gay way. When the intricacies of the cultural setting of the Bible, plus translation issues, are brought forth, its hard to see the Bible as anti-gay. Rather, one sees latent Victorian morals projecting themselves into how we translate and read the Bible. For more on this, check out http://www.soulforce.org/article/685

Luke  Adams

Actually, Joe, you contradict yourself, much as the Bible does, if taken literally. Your rationalist assessment of the Bible's "hate" passages are merely the flipside of the coin of Biblical Fundamentlaism, and you have proven that in spades. No sacrd lore in the world is meant to be taken literally, and that is really the point. The intellectual dishonesty involved with Evangelicals who try to use the Bible as a weapon to condemn homosexuality, yet say Phelps goes too far, is a delusion of wanting to have it both ways -- read the Bible literally in some areas and not in others; proof-texting. Either the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures are meant to be symbols and stories to reveal a complete narrative and deeper truths, or they are meant to be taken word-for-word in a prima facie way. Those of us in the "high" Churches or the gay-outreach denominations who reject the fundamentalist reading of Scripture, or the intellectual dishonesty of some Evangelicals, are not being less truthful and honest than Phelps. We are saying that he is not seeing the forest for the trees, and neither are you.

You Suck

Your thoughts are ridiculous! God doesn't hat anybody. If you knew anything about a religion, then you would at least know that!!!

Joe Perez

John G: "When the intricacies of the cultural setting of the Bible, plus translation issues, are brought forth, its hard to see the Bible as anti-gay." I'm glad you provided a link to a Soulforce article. I think that's a valuable additional perspective. And I also think that it's a limited perspective, a sort of whitewashing of the ugliness in the Bible to suit modern political agendas. I would much rather have a Bible that is ugly and whole, warts and all, rather than a "God is all Love and Light and bunny rabbits" sort of Bible that could have been produced by the Disney corporation.

Luke Adams: I didn't offer a "rationalist's" assessment of the hate passages in the Bible. Maybe a realist's, though. I do not get how that makes me inconsistent, though it may possibly make you incoherent. You apparently prefer some sort of nominalism (the Bible means absolutely nothing intrinsically apart from what Authority X tells me it does). Do you really believe that no homosexually-oriented persons were stoned to death in ancient Israel... that the death penalty for sodomites was never used... or that such practices were not evil... or do you believe they are only stories and myth, and not to be taken literally? I have no problem with your belonging to a "high Church" that in its wisdom has decided to ignore some Bible passages about hate and believe others.

You Suck: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! Well your mama sucks too. LOL.

Robert

Hello all I have some great news for all gay and everyone who wants to learn the truth! http://www.truluck.com is a great example, explaining how it dosen't even say in the bible that it's against christianity to be gay as most may think. That's just one website about it, which explains in thorough detail about it, and was written by a preacher. :) Blessings to you all

Stewart

The true Christian message is "hate the sin, love the sinner". Fred Phelps characterizes Christian denominations which adopt this mantra as "fag churches". The SBC is right to distance themselves, because his doctrine is at variance with the Christian position (espoused by Jesus Himself) that the only sin which cannot be forgive is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Disagree with the Christian position that homsexuality is a sin all you want, but it's irrelevant to Fred because he declares it a sin which can't be forgiven, which is biblical hooey.

joe perez

Thanks Steart for the True Christian Message Announced by Jesus Himself

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