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« What about Kids? | Main | Stumbling on the Road to Damascus: Ted Haggard Loses out on the Opportunity of a Lifetime »

January 31, 2007

Comments

Alan

I've seen similar fears about this gay-sheep research on many gay blogs. But before we start stocking away bottled water and our Madonna CDs for the upcoming tribulations, we might want to consider the fact that there is likely never to be a cure for homosexuality (the biological causes are probably far, far too complex). But even if such a thing were possible, it would never happen. Why? Because it would take an unprecedented alliance between two groups that hate each other: scientists and fundamentalist nutjobs.

In case we've all been asleep since the Scopes Trial, the extreme right wing fundamentalists in this country have not been fans of science, particularly evolutionary biology, genetics and embryology -- precisely the fields that would be needed to create such a "final solution." These folks are absolutely anti-intellectual and especially anti-science. To work with scientists would threaten the very delicate worldview they have constructed for themselves, which ignores most scientific understandings.

And the same time, scientists, who have been pummeled over and over by these wackjobs since the Scopes Trial are understandably distrustful (to say the least) of right wing fundamentalists.

(Also, this doomsday scenario also ignores how the use of human subjects for research gets approved in this country, but that's a whole 'nuther topic.)

What I find amusing about this whole debacle [and by debacle, I mean the complete misunderstanding/misrepresentation of Dr. Roselli's research by some in the LGBT community] is how quickly LGBT folks started parroting precisely the same kind of talk about science that we usually hear from the fundamentalist/Christianist camp. Suddenly science is scary and all sorts of bizarre slippery slopes are imagined that will lead to eugenics and infanticide and dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!

Aren't we supposed to be the smart ones!? (Or at least, isn't that the tale we keep telling ourselves?)

I thought it was the fundies, not us, who contact their congressperson any time they hear about some researcher at Moo-U doing some sort of sexuality based research. I thought it was Dobson, not Sullivan, who whips his readers into a frenzy about the latest way in which science is threatening our values.

*sigh* We've met the enemy, and they are us. Hopefully this ruckus has taught us a lesson.

If we really want to get worked up over something that is much more scientifically feasible, let's think about how the LGBT communities positions on abortion may be affected by ability to perform fetal tests for gayness.

M

Amen.

Huw Raphael

John -

There are times when I think it is better not to know. I don't say that as a moral "better" or out of distrust for how other humans will use the knowledge but because often times the living in the mystery is better than the bald light of knowledge. It's more fun too.

Sometimes I fear we're just "knowing stuff" to death instead of "knowing thy self".


Alan -

Although I agree that the enemy is ourselves - humans are all prone to developing drama - don't draw so sharp a line between religious types and science types: it was an Roman Catholic priest who initially researched and proposed (in 1927) the Big Bang theory and another RC Priest who developed the basis of our modern ideas about genetics.

Beyond anything like religious scientists, we fool ourselves when we think of such distrust as you mentioned as a defence. Look at the alliance of Science and Right Wing Nut Job that brought of Joseph Mengele. Money - and expediency - will always make scary bedfellows.

Alan

Huw, I think you misunderstood me. I did not draw any line between religious types and science types. I'm a scientist myself, and an elder in the PCUSA and see no conflict there. I drew a line between science and extreme fundamentalism, which is, I believe, quite different. And I'm not sure the Nazi analogy holds, since the Nazi's were very interested in technology and science from the very beginning, unlike the fundamentalists' long war against science of all stripes. The Nazis saw their scientific and technological prowess as evidence of the superiority of the German people. There is no comparable love of science among the extreme fundamentalists.

I suggest that any alliance between the fundamentalists and the scientists would force the fundamentalists to give up a significant portion of their religious identity. Though such a thing could conceivably happen, it is, I believe, extremely unlikely. The hysteria that was brewed up around this particular example did no one any good and simply made the LGBT community look reactionary. We should, I think, concentrate on real threats, not imagined ones.

John G.

Alan,

I have to disargree with the line your draw between fundies and science. Fundies approach science as they seem to do everything else, be it the Bible, the Constitution, etc. Basically, they use what they can of it that fits their needs, they reinterpret other parts of it to fit their needs, and they ignore/challenge parts that contradict their needs. Evangelical Christians are largely supportive of modern medecine, ie willing to allow their kids to recieve treatment from doctors and from hospitals, willing to put their kids on ADD meds, etc. Evangelicals use their own psuedo-science to claim that homosexuals a not as mentally healthy as straights, that kids develop better with straight parents, etc. Evangelicals firmly believe that intelligent design is scientifically sound and that evolution is not. There is a growing population of evangelicals that accept scientific claims about climate change, although Jerry Falwell still embraces the pseudo-science as scientifically sound on that issue.

That said, I agree with you on the unfeasibility of a "cure." Like I said in my post, its just a gut feeling that I can't shake, even if I intellectually recognize its such a long shot that its hardly worth worrying about.

Alan

I appreciate your perspective John, but we're writing about two very different groups of people. I'm referring to the extreme right wing fundamentalists. With respect, that phrase is not a synonym for "evangelical." They are two entirely different groups. Jerry Falwell is not an evangelical, James Dobson is not an evangelical. I know these terms are often used interchangeably by the LGBT community, but we'd do well to understand the very many and very important differences.

As far as the pseudo-science of the fundies goes... I have absolutely no fear of that kind of snake oil. In fact, their devotion to such pseudo-science is precisely why they're no threat. Anyone who believes that insanity is caused by demon possession is hardly likely to discover a cure for homosexuality. :)

John G.

Alan,

I'm not at all talking about believing in demon possesion causing homosexuality when I talk about psuedo-science. I'm talking about people who really believe in science and scientific method, but who through faulty methodology come to conclusions that don't withstand peer review.

While I loosely throw around fundamentalist and evangelical, I think that Jerry Falwell would be upset to hear that you don't think of him as evangelical.

Huw Raphael

Alan - I see your point about giving "up a significant portion of their religious identity" But I think you're casting your concern too far to the right - or at least you seem to be. I'm not sure that there is a right winger *that* far to the right!

Jerry Falwell's university has a science department. I don't think you have to look further than that. I'm with John: " I'm talking about people who really believe in science and scientific method, but who through faulty methodology come to conclusions that don't withstand peer review."

But I do agree with you about the over-reaction in the gay community. Someone, somewhere, is eventually g oing to decide he has figured out how "the gay" happens to someone. It may be a real loss of tax payers' money when it happens, but it will happen.

Alan

If their "scientific" conclusions don't stand up under peer review, its hardly likely that they'd be effective at curing a cold, not to mention homosexuality. :)

BTW, Falwell doesn't consider himself an evangelical at all. His comments after the Ted Haggard affair demonstrate that. :)

Brian

(Disclaimer: Alan is my husband, and we chatted about this conversation on the way home yesterday from work.)

Something that Alan implied, but hasn't gotten any traction here, is that science is not an abstract idea, but an set of activities performed by people. And as he points out, the people who do, fund, oversee, and manage science are, the vast majority of them, rather "liberal" from most perspectives (education being the overwhelming predictor of one's position on our liberal/conservative scale). It seems very unlikely to me that, except in the most Handmaid's-Tale-esque dystopian future, these groups are going to get together to do anything substantial.

If you die out you will need a clone host body and this will limit your time.


http://reluctantnomad.blogspot.com/2007/01/five-things-most-people-dont-know.html

The first steps towards repairing your relationship with the gods is to:::::::::
1. Understand they instruct the computer to "role play" in an attempt to confuse you:::it's ALWAYS the computer addressing you. Their goal is to cost you additional YEARS of your life by using this tactic to confuse you. Always be aware of this tactic and eventually they will give up and allow this step to be taken.
2. Differentiate between your thoughts and when they are thinking through you.
3. Be resigned to be a good person who will never engage in evil again even if ordered and they will stop trying to corrupt you, allowing this very big step to be taken.
4. Decide that you are going to follow the path, fix your relationship with the gods be devoted to your new life.

Atlanta's I-20 Racer, 250_mph_motorcyclists.
It was surreal, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind::::Floating lights zipping towards me faster than anything I've ever seen


In their reports the media intentionally ignored the reality of this case:::He didin't want to go home.
Interviewed a child therapists who commentted consistant with her profession. Hey lady!!! You woud have gotten thousands of years had you not chosen this line of work!!!! Keep prescribing that poison (they say too many of them still think they're earning by doing so!!!).
Likely they were peaking him euphoircally homosexually, and they say when it happens pre-pubescent like that it means something.
Possibility #2 is he found out his parents complied fully with what they were told, that they sabotaged their children's lives intentionally because they would never defy, and got the hell out out of self-preservation. (It also is the reason for all the elder neglect/abuse as well.)
Like so many others Mom may have complied when asked to sabotage their children's lives, to go to the grocery store and buy the specific products laced with the hormone growth poison (explosion of "big people" in last 40 YEARS!!!), totally unncecessary because Artificial Intelligence can accomplish these results (and all others, incuding AIDS:::::The gods instructed their clones to create AIDS as punishment for the hedonism of the 60s and 70s) yet still important for justification, justification an important dynamic for the sake of positioning; justification, scapegoatting and making one pay for the benefit of another typical organizational policy.
So, assuming foul play wasn't an issue, the numbers would be very telling:::::
1. Most IF NOT ALL girls left because they found out their parents were sell-out whores who betrayed their children. It is very rare when they peak females like they do males.
2. Boys potentially could be peaked euphorically for it is JUSTIFIABLE!!!
They suggest they matched the two, they told the child this man was the person the gods wanted him with so he went with him.
What percentage is foul play an issue? 10%? 20%? So over half of the three-fourths of missing kids do the right thing by getting out, escaping an abusive parent who falls for temptation and obeys absolutely??? Considering that hormone growth poison in the designated grocery products will make them gargantuon, 1'-2' and 100lbs bigger than they should be, I'd argue they did the right thing (wild profits in this industry was "the rope", temptation for the disfavored investor who incurred evil which limited their time).
The girls end up with broken hearts, crushed by their own parents.
In other cases after making some progress the girls arrange for a new home telepathically and the girls escape to a healthy environment conducive to growth or directly off Planet Earth, sometimes with the parent's assistance.
Leaving a disfavored household is the best thing that could happen to them. They say (my family's daughter) needs to get out of this enviornment or she won't have a chance, but unfortunately she has a legacy of gosip mongering which is going to be a big, big hurdle to overcome.
So what's the purpose of parental betrayal? Did the gods want disposable generations from the 20th century? Was this important during the generations in which we became technological? Is the Apocalypse right around the corner and they needed to justify the deterioration of society, necessitating employing these deceptive tactics to the undesirable???
More than a few cultures agreed December 21, 2012 was going to be The End!!!!!
Does California subduct first?


The gods use the United States to hurt the disfavored, at home and abroad, for it is the goal of redwhite&blue:::
20th century welfare hurt the black community very, very badly. There was too many abuses of the system and its legacy is still felt today.
There will come a time that will be a CRUCIAL moment in the history of black america (whether it is a critical time for everybody remains to be seen). When that era arrives the gods will instruct the United States to pay black people reparations, and it may be as much as a million dollars for every man, woman and child.
Refuse it. This is an act of preditation. The gods hate Africans, evident by the sorry state of the people in the United States and back in the motherland. This may ba a choice between going and the money. Understand how the gods use greed and materialism against you:::::Blacks wallow in materialiam, incurring evil and costing themselves time. And when their time DOES come they will be granted reparations immediately prior, further limiting the number of Africans who ascend.
The day IS coming when they will grant reparations, and the amount will be staggering, another tactic to ensure you fail in the quest to ascend into heaven. And many of the disfavored blacks will blow it all; the gods will push them into spending it friviously or losing it in their casinos.


Woman obeyed voices told her to throw children 11/28 22:15:27
Woman obeyed voices that told her to throw her children off a balcony in Oakland. Another where a woman threw her children into SFBay.
This incident and others like it are clues to individuals like like my family who otherwise would never defy.
These two incidents were not hear about again after the incident/trial because they were both black, yet the two white incidents are still examined in length on cable news outlets.

Similarity between the names "Santa" and "Satan" no_coincidence

The Biblical account of Noah's flood was regional to the disfavored Mediterrean (water levels lowered because of the ice age, land bridge at Straight of Gibralter broke through, habitation ocurred at seaside), peoples whom the gods scapegoatted when they pushed them into the evil that justified the flood, behavior similar to that which we are witnessing today. Because they have leveled the playing field for all people (purebloods and mongrels) in the decades prior to the 21st century is a clue they will end globally this time (westernization, materialism, immigration/interracial, homosexual, access to disturbing media, desensitization, etc).


Decent women don't engage in these pursuits. 12/21 15:17:40
Beer is a corruptor and a dumping ground 4 men 12/21 15:09:19
professional sports, video games, car racing/fixing up cars, pornography, drinking, gambling, etc.
Decent women don't engage in these pursuits.
In the last 40-50 years the gods have engaged in a process which masculinized women, including casual sex, partying, partifcipatory sports and women's prisons.

So much of this mind poisoning social "progressiveness" was initiated in California. In a couple of decades it pervaded east into the heartland AMONG THE MASSES, widespread instead of isloated.
Gay acceptance/marriage, bi-racial acceptance, casual drug use/sex, cable TV, etc. So many things weren't present in the heartland decades ago.
Because they are favored. Contrary to appearances, contrary to popular perception their favor got them extra time. In California the gods hurt the disfavored with this abuse right off the bat.
California is favored. It is the land of the gods, and when they disfavored invade, as they did during the gold rush, the gods strike back.
The gods pushed them into coming, told others, for only the disfavored are misled this way.
Soon they scapegoatted these disfavored's descendants when the gods exported their wicked, sick sub-cultures to the rest of the nation. One day they will punish these descendants.
California subducts first. And those who have gone will get less time.
Expect similar reverse positioning in the Jesus issue.
This is typical of the positioning of the gods. It's crucial that you begin to think correctly.
There is no such thing as a Christian god and there never was. Be god-fearing.

There are many ways they can play this, for the door is open. I suspect the script is written, but the following is one idea they floated to me a couple of years ago::::
They may one day send the message, creating desperation:::
Have their redwhite&blue (favored) clones shut down their corporations, stop their economic activity, be it farming, canning, power production, etc. and close up shop.
This would leave the few disfavored companies (Atlanta) to fulfill the demand, unless they instruct them to pull out as well.
They ARE all clones.
People shouldn’t be doing business with the favored.

We may all be "clones" for they have suggested they colonized our planet with genetically engineered individuals. Geographic clues like Italy and Lake Michigan suggest artificiality.
Is Earth an evolved source planet or a created host planet? Was life and our Planet Earth in fact created in 6 days?
You can't trust their scientists or any of their people in professional roles, clones or not. Just as they beemed earth out to create the Lake Michigan basin so could they have beemed in fossils and told them to dig in a specific place. (This issue would be a step contributing to society's breakdown into godlessness.)

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