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« The Gifts of Stonewall – 40 Years Later | Main | British gay Jesus video: Comedy or truth? »

July 01, 2009

Comments

pennyjane

wow! yes, God is always moving in His church. if you wonderful people can open a window for His light to shine into the darkness of this fearful soul you will have opened windows all over the world.

you are truly doing God's work here and my guess is that He is awfully proud of your efforts right now.

much love and hope. pj

Satsuma

Looks like gay male patriarchs trying to talk to straight male patriarchs. It's all a men's club. Where are the lesbian protesting these male supremacist pastors.

What their church says about women is almost as bad as what it says about gay men. These people are simply worthless sexists in my book.

The bottom line is that this is institutionalized male supremacy talking, it is not benefitical to feminism, the women's rights or to women's liberation! But men want to be validated by other men, and this is the problem always.

pennyjane

gosh satsuma...i hope you can find a way to expand your horizons just a bit. everything that happens in the world is not always a male organized conspiracy against women...really, sometimes other things are at play.

i'm really big on bringing legitimization to transsexuals in our culture, but honestly, it's not always all about that. yes, other people have different agendas but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are conspiring against me whenever their attention isn't focused on my particular point of interest. it's ok...others have other agendas that are just as important to them as mine is to me...don't make them bad guys, just pursuing other interests.

really, take a break from all that hate and bitterness...it's not good for you in such abundance.

much love and hope. pj

Satsuma

No it's just men talking to men about male power... gay men talking to fundamentalist straight men, straight fundamentalist men doing the major attacking on right wing radio and TV, against, you guessed it, gay men. So I am most certainly going to point this out, because my point is that women should connect to women, and that feminism is something that both straight men and gay men tend to not care about, unless of course women raise a ruckus over this.
Does a meeting benefit women or lesbians? Just what do women get out of this type of dialogue? What do right wing male fundamentalists actually saying about women, and the bible? How is the bible used by these right wing men to oppress women in the world, it's pretty serious business to me pennyjane, pretty serious indeed. Read "Quiverfull" to get an inside look at these people and their anti-feminist agenda.
Soulforce, to my knowlege doesn't really take the anti-feminism and woman oppressing doctrines of these churches seriously enough in my opinion. Remember, when they are talking about "gay" rights, they really mean men. Women are an after thought. I've seen this for decades, and why are you defending patriarchal men all the time anyway? I have a real problem with this.

To me, the rights of women are number one. Just like men and especially gay men are out supporting their rights. Lesbians often have no real power in these organizations headed by men, and never have. Since you haven't been a feminist activist, and aren't connected to lesbians groups pennyjane, I think you really should learn more before you go out of your way to defend the boys. Just my opinion, and again, take a look at the agenda of an organization. How on earth will women gain with patriarchs like Hagee in charge? Why would any feminist bother with them, except to vigorously protest their sexist agenda nationwide, and it is a HUGE anti-feminist agenda these men are really about.

Satsuma

And I've noticed that there is no mention at all of these gay guys in any of the feminist spirituality movements or feminist christian movements that I've been a part of since the early 1980s. They aren't mentioned because these gay male leaders are not interested in the rights of women, aren't interested in attacking patriarchy at the roots, and don't get that the main reason that gay men are hated by these fundamentalists, is because gay men behave like women, and thus should be killed... it is male surpemacy, and these ultra-male supremacist churches that are at the root cause of major anti-women's rights activism in the U.S. They helped to defeat the ERA, they have fought tooth and nail to prevent women from being ordained in the churches (just ask all the lesbians who have lost their jobs in ministry), and they think that husbands should be lords over women or minature gods. To read this fundamentalist anti-woman nonsense is amazing.

So when groups like this don't address the rights of women, and this male supremacy right up front, just who's rights are they talking about? That is always the question you have to ask, because lesbians fight two large civil rights battles, the battle for women's rights and the battle for lesbian rights. And if you are non-white, you will be dealing with racism. Now if you were a former male, perhaps you still retain that male socialization that makes you conveniently overlook this stuff, in that case, I'd say you are not well educated in the nuances of how patriarchy and right wing christianity and the bible oppresses and oppressed women historically. It's why lesbians have to speak up about this, because if we don't speak up, I can assure you that those gay guys over at soul force will not confront their sexism or the sexism and womanhatred rampant within right wing christianity, and taught to every boy born worldwide.

Tonias

what does the Q stand for in LGBT? surely with LGBT we covered all areas??

Tonias

also!
To be perfectly honest if you are fighting for someones rights whether it be gay, lesbian, straight, man, woman, children black, white or otherwise you have got it wrong.

we are a global communtiy and family all human and the rights for all should be equal. equality does not stem from boosting the social status of one group it comes from investing even power amongst us all as the individual to fuel the collective.

This is the aim of the future for peace. fighting for rights just perpetuates the anger on both sides of the fence.
i feel.

pennyjane

hi tonias. some self-identify as "queer", thus the "Q".

i think some might feel that boosting the social status of one group is the way to the equal sharing of rights you say is just. it sure would be nice if everyone were so willing to share equally...but, honey...that's even more polyannaish than i am. without tension the status quo will just flow along as usual...it is tension that fuels the engine of change.

much love and hope. pj

Tonias

i am sorry?!!? queer? how is that not just homosexual? really wow i never knew that.

i see your point but as naive as it sounds i am hoping for the other route to equality. sometimes i forget poeple have a problem with homosexuality. it is crazy, for me love is love. odd.

namaste! x

pennyjane

i can't say for sure....way before my time of course, but gramma once told me while we were at the bar that...back in the day...people used to call same-sex loving people "queers". they meant it as derogatory...really, it was a mean and nasty thing to call folks. so, according to gramma, some people later took on the name as a kind of sarcastic-in-your-face kind of retort.

it's not alot different then when i was little and the other kids made fun of me by calling me a girl. it was intended as a put down by them but of course to me it was a big old "duh?" right, i'm a girl...get over it.

yup....a whole great big lot of people still have a whole great big lot of problems with homosexuality. but it's truly inspirational to hear someone speak who is shocked by that reality. in my dreams the day is coming when we'll all feel like that...by hook or by crook, one way or another.....

much love and hope. pj

Tonias

hmmmm right well queer is an odd choice as originally it means odd or strange itself. why not stick with gay aka happiness?!? poeple are odd.

and we will deffinitely feel that way it the the way of peace and happiness or gaiety!

Love is love. end of story. i always thought hope was a good thing. it is not. it expects for the worst and waits for chance to change it.
i am a man of love and freedom. i am free to feel, see, hear, love, taste, meet and experience whoever and whatever i so choose. hope for me just becomes obliterated in our light. We are the light all things become obliterated by us.
what do you think are you a being of love and freedom or chance and hope?

i do not intend to offend you these are just simply my views.

namaste and of course love
Tonias x

pennyjane

hi tonias. your views are not offensive, they are real and sincere...thus wonderful.

hope. yes, hope has a very disconcerting appeal for me. hopelessness is not always an heir of dismay or despair, sometimes it's a most effective defense mechanism. hopelessness promotes contentment through disengagement. one without hope is without aspiration and thus not prone to disappointment, disillusionment or failure. a successful day is defined only be breathing one's way into sleep at night. achievement is measured only by the continuation of the biological processes. failure designated only by death and emptiness...hard to lose in that context. you are right, when our private space is invaded by hope is when all the troubles begin. with hope comes desire: one begins to actually give a rotten rat's patute about what's going on around her and begins to make investiments in outcomes. you find yourself caring, and expensive proposition if you ask me. hopes become dreams and dreams desire realization.....shoot, gotta go to work now! hope is like adding color to the black and white tv, pretty but such a sophisticated nuance. hope's only reward is it's own fulfillment...and it gathers momentum. demanding business! hope hurts and hope heals. hope dismantles comfort...throwing cold water on the warm and fuzzy face of depression. hope bleeds and scabs over. hope challenges potential and becomes a catalyst for action, for movement. messy stuff...that hope.

much love and hope. pj

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