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« All I Want is a Cure and My Friends Back | Main | No Justice for Laurel Hester? »

December 02, 2005


Mark Worthen


Don't you think it would be better to suggest that gay/bi/queer men participate in a "gateway" NWTA run by and for gay/bi/queer men? For example, the Gateway NWTA August 25-27 in Indiana. I agree with your caution about signing up for a NWTA in Los Angeles given the large percentage of SSA men in that community. However, the majority of MKP communities are *not* dominated by SSA men. I have yet to meet one in my community (Greater Carolinas).


Mark Worthen

Joe Perez

Hi Mark,

I'm glad you mentioned that option and also gave information about MKP in your community. I'm not involved with any Gateway NWTAs for gay/bi/queer men and don't have information about them (perhaps somebody will post relevant information here). I think that's definitely an option worth considering, so I've added a sentence to the end of the blog post. Thanks for the suggestion.


I just want to say that I hear and honor your truth. It makes me sad to think that men of SSA would go so far out of their way as to infiltrate trainings with the premise that they can Gay bash. This to me shows a huge shadow around them not looking at what not being gay is really about for them. That they would go so far as to try and infect others with their projection shows how truly diseased these men may really be, but not because they are dealing with sexual issues, but because they are not dealing with the poison and disease of ignorance.
I doubt that the leadership of the weekends going on in LA would allow such hypocracy to transpire. But airing on the side of caution is never really an unadvisable position.

I personally would have liked to see something of refernce to other communities in the general area presented as an option. As well I trust that in the long run the result of differentiation is a stronger cohesion as an Organization, because men will be called to look closer at their shadow around multiculturalism.



Joe Perez

Our blogging software (TypePad) seems to have erased several comments on this post... plus some changes made to the original post. If you posted and it's not here, that was just a technical glitch. Feel free to repost and thanks for your patience.

Bennie Naude

Hi Joe

Long time no see - you may remember we met at the RWG in 2004.

I read your posting with surprise, as I've staffed 29 NWTA's in Canada, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, the UK and the US and have not seen anything to lead me to caution any gay/bi/questioning men to attend. (I've also done numerous other trainings with men from all levels of experience/involvement in MKP).

The NWTA (and MKP) is certainly not perfect and I do agree with you that homophobia exist here as it does elsewhere. I find myself being homophobic at times even though I identify myself as a gay man! What I find different and refreshing about the non-gay men in MKP that I've met is that they are willing to look at their homophobic behaviour and learn from it.

AND ... I've not been to LA (but this posting has certainly heightened my interest to staff a weekend there).

Having staffed two gay/bi/questioning Gateway NWTA's, I highly recommend them to men so called, but not to the exclusion of non-gateway NWTAs.

In gratitude
Bennie Naude
London, UK

Joe Perez

Hi Bennie,

Good to hear from you. I think it's worth repeating, as you do, that most gay/bi men are unlikely to have a negative experience on a NWTA. Perhaps Bennie you have never encountered a community with a strong, even dominant, ex-gay presence among the weekend staff? From what I have heard from reputable sources in MKP leadership, sadly I can say that there have been at least one or two NWTAs in Los Angeles that crossed the line into abusive behavior of initiates. Moreover, in my judgment, the response from MKP leadership has not (yet) been adequate to prevent future problems. Therefore, I suggest that gay men in the LA area travel to San Francisco, Phoenix, Portland, Houston, or another community to do their NWTA.

My caution to gay/bi men... remains. Consider avoiding L.A. Don't let anyone frighten you out of doing this weekend just because there are risks. But take care of yourself.


David Bird

What I believe has happened is that some of the men who self-identify as having attractions they don't want, really like the New Warrior Training Adventure. As do men of color, different religions, and men from 21 to 90. Feeling good about being a man, learning and working together, many men like that.

The SSA men I know are doing intensely personal work, when they talk about "how they don't want to act and think," it affirms the homophobic cultural messages saying the gay equals sick. When gay men hear or read these words, very old, very deep wounds are re-opened.

Over the last ten years the representation of bi and gay men within the MKP has grown dramatically. The organization is actively working to be more diverse and representative of the population at large. There are training adventures where the invitation to b/g men to serve as staff for men to attend as participants. I've served on staff for most of these "gateway" events. I'm very proud of them, especially because they are always both a mix of b/g and non-b/g men, and affirming of bi and gay men. My hope is that men that want to know more about this will check out the web site, and consider having a conversation with someone in the orgainzation.

john betz

I am interested in learning more about Gay men's organizations. The more the better. I was (thought) I was not gay when married. Now that the marriage ended I am free to pursue the real me...


cliff rogers

I did my New Warrior Training in June, and as a test it was the first time I "came out" as a gay man (since I read on the MKP homepage that the group is all inclusive). In my I-group, all the straight men didn't have a problem with me -- but there was one SSA man who was trying to use our group as a sounding board for his ex-gay therapy. I opposed his efforts in a "clearing session". He expressed views that I found offensive. I kind of had the feeling that he would throw me in a gas chamber if he could get away with it. And yet, we resolved not to discuss the issue of homosexuality in our group meetings (either pro or con). I am shaken to the core, though; I simply don't trust him, and I really don't see how I can fully participate in this group and enjoy "good vibrations" anymore. Nor do I want to go to an exclusively gay group; I enjoy straight men, and straight men seem to enjoy me, too; but it's this SSA-reparative-therapy guy that's giving me a hard time (telling me I'm living a lie). Part of me wants to ask MKP for my money back for "false advertising". I joined up, thinking it would be all-inclusive, and now I'm finding ex-gay, homophobic, reparative-therapy elements.

joe perez

hi cliff,

thanks for posting the comment about your experience with MKP. i've just written an update for this blog on MKP's refusal to deal with the "reparative therapy" problem it has, so you may want to check it out.

However, your situation is a little different than what I'm writing about. Your problem occurred in an I-Group that is not, technically speaking, an official MKP event. I-Groups are totally independent and free to set their own rules. If you're still a member of this I-Group, I would urge you to exercise your leadership in the group and ask for what you want. You may not get it, but you maybe you can get the other men in your group to look at its shadow around homosexuality. You may be surprised to find that not all the men are comfortable with supporting the ex-gay man in his quest to "cure himself" of his "disease," once they hear about the pain this causes for you. On the other hand, some men may try to tell you it's your problem. Best wishes to you,



I judge that men who have a problem with current and former SSA men in New Warriors are whiny and need to quit complaining.

MKP has absolutely no obligation to gay men that the organization will be without men who were once gay and have discovered a deeper heterosexual truth withing themselves. If this truth makes gay men uncomfortable; then the gay men need to figure out why they are so uncomfortable around SSA men who have discovered a different truth within themselves.

Ultimately I judge it really comes down to integrity. If a man wants to be gay and likes being gay and he is committed to sexually intimate relationships with other men as part of his mission, then he should be supported. If another man wants to be straight and wants to seek relatonships that meet his same-sex needs in other ways and explore opposite sex attractions then he should also be supported.

MKP doesn't advertise or promise that all men will see the same truth, have the same mission or carry that out in the same types of relationships.

I judge that I am seeing fear from gay men when they find SSA men who becme straight in MKP. I judge the shadow is not an anti-gay shadwo from the SSA men, but rather a shadow around the gay men -- they have a problem accepting that their relatioships and how they seek intimacy are their choice -- not some "pre-destined" "wiring" as the gay movement would like to believe.

Deep at the heart of MKP is a belief that men create the lives they want. If gay men can't reconcile this with the idea that they are born with a pre-destined way of forming relationships that is not because MKP is guilty of false advertising.

I idon't see how a man can be an MKP "New Warrior" and still cling to the idea "I was just born this way I will always feel the way I do now" -- when the whole premise of MKP is that a man can create in himself, his feelings and his life what he chooses.

Ultimately I judge the gay men are afriad to confront the emotional and physical choices they infact make; hence thier fear of SSA men in MKP who have been empowered to make different choices.

The victimation of "I'm gay and I'm just born that way" just doesn't seem to square with the MKP philosophy. Trying to make it square means changing the MKP philosophy itself. I jusge that would be an unfortunate turn for the project to take.

joe perez

Considering that the issue is now resolved by MKP and the organization has made it clear that it doesn't support reparative therapy, I don't know quite what you're getting off on by speaking for "the heart of MKP" a minority opinion. I hope spewing your anger and strong judgments made you feel better.


Very few things actually get manufactured these days, because in an
infinitely large Universe, such as the one in which we live, most things one
could possibly imagine, and a lot of things one would rather not, grow
somewhere. A forest was discovered recently in which most of the trees grew
ratchet screwdrivers as fruit. The life cycle of the ratchet screwdriver is
quite interesting. Once picked it needs a dark dusty drawer in which it can
lie undisturbed for years. Then one night it suddenly hatches, discards its
outer skin that crumbles into dust, and emerges as a totally unidentifiable
little metal object with flanges at both ends and a sort of ridge and a hole
for a screw. This, when found, will get thrown away. No one knows what the
screwdriver is supposed to gain from this. Nature, in her infinite wisdom,
is presumably working on it.



The SSA men use the NWTA as an event to "repair" their "damaged masculinity," and often enthusiastically promote it as a part of reparative therapy programs.

Elanor Broswitt

It's the first time I read about the MKP and I have to admit...I'm impressed. It's a brilliant idea. Now I talk about this with all my friends and they talk with their friends....and the news spreads.
Thanks for this magnificent info.

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