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« International Forgiveness Day, Sunday, August 3, 2008 | Main | "Oh God I'm Gay!" Podcast »

July 31, 2008

Comments

Kittredge Cherry

Excellent comments about this post are online now at the Jesus In Love Blog, where this is cross-posted. The discussion includes comments from Toby Johnson himself, plus RiverWolf and Madpriest.

A few highlights:

From Riverwolf: “I'm still caught in the middle, both wanting to go beyond 'gay' and also clinging to it.”

From Madpriest: “In a situation where gay spirituality is deliberately excluded from everybody spirituality, gay people have to form a separatist spiritual identity for their own spiritual welfare and to inform the straight world of the existence of their spirituality.”

From Toby: “'Everybody spirituality' ought to be trying to be as inclusive as possible and to rise to a higher perspective. In that sense, there's no great difference between 'gay spirituality' and 'everybody spirituality.' But the reality is that 'everybody' is NOT trying to rise above their religions.”

Visit the Jesus In Love Blog and join the discussion!

http://www.jesusinlove.blogspot.com/

Clayton

Here is one of Toby's many articles on the subject, for background:

http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/spirituality_an.html

pennyjane

since God made us all in His image i guess all spirituality is everybody spirituality. however; as humans we need to differentiate. nothing can be explained except by it's relationship to something else. if one is christian, for instance; if all the powers that be in the explanation of christianity say that homosexuality is wrong then christianity must be examinined in a different light then conventional wisdom. christians can't just up and stop believing in the deity of Christ just because a seeming majority of others of like belief see them as less then worthy. they know, as christians, that they are in fact worthy so they have to explain christianity in a new way, a way that does not render them unworthy. thus the "gay" designation. i use gay as an example, there are many other genres of humans who have to make the same choice in the explantion their own beliefs.

the bottom line is that we are all worthy of our humanity and our beliefs so when we are attacked for them we...as we always have...circle the wagons and seek asylum with others of like mind.

difference does not denote discrimination. it puzzles me somethime at how we all want to celebrate our "diversity" and yet we seem so abhorant to the concept itself. so often when we say something like.." i am not like you," we are met with all sorts of mean and hateful responses. seems as if we do equate diversity with negative judgment.

as a transwoman whenever i point out, in the tg genre, that i have virtually nothing in common with transvestites i am immediately labeled as bigoted and elitist. some of the responses i get are downright hateful and sometimes even frightening. seems diverstiy in that genre is the enemy, we have to convelute, render ourselves down to the lowest common denominator and accept ourselves within that or bear the brunt of being "different", the very idea we announce our defense of. it's "tg" spirituality and i don't like it one little bit...so i opt out of that one and create my own "hbs" spirituality where my own true self can be free and i can celebrate that which God has made as one expression of His greater image without making myself someone else or allowing others to pretend they are me. gosh, i'm just so elitist!

God bless us all with much love and hope, pj

ned

My two cents as an Aurobindoan: I've written about this topic on my blog, but, I fear, in a way that generally tends to offend all sides involved in this debate.

I understand that as queer people we are very wounded and there is a need for "queer-centric" spirituality sometimes just to bring attention to the sort of collective wounds we have endured (and growing up in an Islamic country, I've suffered many traumas, so I know firsthand how these wounds feel).

However, I take the Foucauldian position that the very creation of sexual and gender categories is used as a tool of oppression. And this is very consistent with the Vedantic philosophy which sees the life-force (of which sexuality is a mundane aspect) as essentially one -- the life-force merely crystallizes into various forms at the divided physical level. In truth, eros is universal, equal to all, and has no preferences.

It is easy to turn our LGBT identities into another ego-mask and sink into a sense of victimhood -- whereby we refuse to recognize our participation in the queerphobia, homophobia and transphobia in society. Yes -- unconsciously we *do* participate in these things and we ourselves internalize these phobias. I often feel that we use the masks of these identities to avoid facing our own shadows. And then there is always the danger of a kind of collective ego developing, which takes you further away from your true soul, your true identity.

However, of course every single group has its relative gifts to offer in this evolutionary journey. Within the integral yoga community, I've been told that the greater visibility being given to LGBT people shows that humanity is growing out of its immature attachment to a binary gender system, and is starting to see love as not being wedded to physical nature or procreation. So LGBT identities *are* playing their role in propelling humanity to a higher evolutionary state.

But in the end, I just feel that these relative identities are very limited. I am not denying that there *are* relative spiritual gifts that are offered by LGBT people, but what I'm saying is that in truth, each person is a *unique* soul -- and the soul transcends and is above all our external identities. The soul is the *highest* individuality. Each soul is potentially a *creator* -- the creator of something completely new and original, something never seen before. As long as we cling to external identities and external group identities -- which I don't deny is often necessary given the extent of the emotional wounds we sometimes sustain -- our soul and its *unique gifts* will remain forever hidden from us.

Even as we stand up for our right to express our LGBT identities, let's not lose sight of the larger goal of self-transformation.

pennyjane

hmmmm.....i think this "we are all one" thing is just so overplayed. sure we are all of the one, but we are different parts of the one. i kind of see it as egocentric for one to see themselves as the whole, an expression of the whole. we each only express one part of the whole: ok, many one parts of the whole. point is we aren't everything, that would be God.

as a woman, yes...a woman, not the whole...that part of the whole which is female, i love expressing that and i love the awe and mystery i associate with the male. i don't have to be it to love it and admire it and respect it. i kind of feel like when we get to wanting to be it all we get in way over our heads and end up not being too good of whatever it is we are.

just as i am a "practicing" christian, i think we are all searchers, we're not completed...in my humble opinion not even close. frankly, i don't even want to be completed, i love growing and learning and loving and being vulnerable way too much.

God bless us all with much love, and the most wonderful gift of all from our maker.....HOPE.

ned

PJ, I guess I should qualify everything I write as saying that it's where *I* am personally and it's what I am trying to live right now -- but it may not be right for others.

In the spiritual/yogic view, your true individuality *is* realized in the One. What we typically refer to as our individual ego, from the yogic viewpoint, is hardly "individual" or "unique" at all -- it's weighed down by attachments to the past, neuroses and atavisms inherited from our parents and cultures, and so on.

What I aspire for yogically is to be free of all these attachments to the past and be liberated to create the future -- and to create something truly new and unique. The point I was making was that ego-based identities are always sort of coping mechanisms that we use to avoid letting this true self or soul emerge. That doesn't mean they aren't necessary or helpful -- we certainly do have to put up a facade for the world in order to not disturb it too much. But the real "me" lies somewhere much deeper than my superficial outer ego-personality. And the real "me" is always going to be something of a Mystery, something I can't quite label or put my finger on.

pennyjane

hi ned. i think that's probably a disclaimer not necessary in our writings. we're all talking about who we are and where we are ourselves...well, at least i am. i'd find it hard to talk much about where someone else is and what they think about this or that. we do get alot of that...everybody, it seems, is quoting someone else when they speak. seems like keeping the door cracked to me...a way of not having to take responsibility for what one says...."well, I didn't say that, i only said so and so said it."

i quote pennyjane.

i do think your aspiration to the one is a noble calling. we all go about it differently and with different expectations. i don't see myself as ever creating anything new, i don't think that's within my power. i often rearrange some things to change them into something different then they were, but...that's not really creating in the larger sense. that's not taking nothing and making something of it, that is really just participating in the evolution of the whole universe, changing things, using up their applicability in the present and making them more accepting of the future.

my evolution, physical, emotional, cultural and otherwise are properties that are me. i don't want to do away with them, or grow out of them...it's who i am, who i was made and who i have become. these are the tools i have to write my own future with, unique as it can be and without assuming a blank slate.

we're all searching on the same road, just in different places along the way. God bless you and us all with much love and hope. pj

ned

God bless, PJ. :-)

Carolyn

Maybe it's "Everybody" spirituality for those of us who don't see the huge difference between an all lesbian spiritual group, and one mixed with everyone.

Me, I don't believe in integration, since it's forced on me everywhere else in the world.

Kittredge Cherry

This subject of “gay spirituality” vs. “everybody spirituality” has really hit a nerve. It’s gotten more comments here and at the Jesus in Love Blog than anything I’ve ever posted (19 comments there and counting). I believe it’s part of a movement away from “identity politics,” which was once liberating but now has led to deadlock in the Hillary (women) vs. Barack (black) stalemate. Many people, myself included, are searching for a unity or a new coalition or a new way of thinking in order to move forward in such situations.

It’s fascinating that the same dynamics are playing out in various communities, including the trans examples explained by PJ.

I do believe that our wounds can heal into a source of strength.

Julian Spalding

Not one to ever post on a blog, I'll weigh in on this discussion since I'm a participant in Peter Grahame's book Contemplations of the Heart: A Book of Male Spirit. I also facilitated the discussion at his gay spirit retreat April 08. Here's my contribution: There is no "everybody spirituality," there is only each person's unique spirituality. There is no one-fits-all spirituality: that's the realm of religion with its rules and proscriptions. That said, there is, in my view, a unique "gay spirituality" that informs a gay person's unique apirituality. I would even add that there is a unique lesbian spirituality and a uinque gay male spirituality that stems from the unique make up of gay and lesbian people. We are different from straight people, a difference that comes from nature and nurture. The natural difference is genetic and energetic. We are blessed with a unique "gay gene" that gives us a unique lens with which we view the world. And our experiences growing up with this unique lens contribute to a way of viewing the world that cannot be replicated by a non-gay person. I don't mean to say we gay poeople are superior, just different. The rainbow of diversity in humans is what makes us so spectacularly beautiful. The repression of that diversity by the culture of sameness has deprived the world of the unique contributions of many of us. Others have let their light shine through the prism of their being without needing to be catergorized as "gay," even before such labels were invented. At the same time, the cultural repression of our gifts has created a wound that, when healed, becomes our greatest strength. Only when we acknowledge and love ourselves in our woundedness can we be the most powerful people we were meant to be. We are all evolving into our shining selves.

Julian Spalding

Not one to ever post on a blog, I'll weigh in on this discussion since I'm a participant in Peter Grahame's book Contemplations of the Heart: A Book of Male Spirit. I also facilitated the discussion at his gay spirit retreat April 08. Here's my contribution: There is no "everybody spirituality," there is only each person's unique spirituality. There is no one-fits-all spirituality: that's the realm of religion with its rules and proscriptions. That said, there is, in my view, a unique "gay spirituality" that informs a gay person's unique apirituality. I would even add that there is a unique lesbian spirituality and a uinque gay male spirituality that stems from the unique make up of gay and lesbian people. We are different from straight people, a difference that comes from nature and nurture. The natural difference is genetic and energetic. We are blessed with a unique "gay gene" that gives us a unique lens with which we view the world. And our experiences growing up with this unique lens contribute to a way of viewing the world that cannot be replicated by a non-gay person. I don't mean to say we gay poeople are superior, just different. The rainbow of diversity in humans is what makes us so spectacularly beautiful. The repression of that diversity by the culture of sameness has deprived the world of the unique contributions of many of us. Others have let their light shine through the prism of their being without needing to be catergorized as "gay," even before such labels were invented. At the same time, the cultural repression of our gifts has created a wound that, when healed, becomes our greatest strength. Only when we acknowledge and love ourselves in our woundedness can we be the most powerful people we were meant to be. We are all evolving into our shining selves.

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