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January 24, 2009



When I was very young I tried to kill myself three times - as an adult its not so direct. Being hated for being gay has lead to self destructive behavior that continues to this day. IT SHOULD BE OK TO BE GAY AT 18. MY LIFE WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF IT WERE BUT IT WASN'T AND ISN'T


never lose hope, paul. the world is changing as we speak. we can all help...we can be the change we want to see. know that you are not alone, there are many, many others like you and there is One great big One who loves you so much He died for you and would do it again in a heartbeat.

i can only say how glad i am that your youthful attempts weren't successful and your destructive behavior is not permanent. you can change, you will change and you will be a catalyst for others to change as well.

much love and HOPE. pj


i am not a gay or lesbian but i am a proud suporter of it. this movie was a very good example of how people are now a days and its cruel and wrong. its hard to deal with such a big thing and not have anyone to talk to. i hope a lot of people learn from this movie, the parents of gays, the gays and lesbians and bi sexuals, and even the people who treat people different just because of their sexual preference. **** AND PLEASE PEOPLE BEFORE YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ABOUT KILLING YOUR SELF, SEEK PEOPLE TO TALK TO THEIRS ALWAYS SOMEONE TO TALK TO IT MAY NOT BE YOUR PARENTS OR FRIENDS BUT U CAN FIND SOMEONE THERES ALWAYS SOMEONE OUT THERE........ YOU WERE PLACED ON EARTH FOR A REASON PLEASE DONT TAKE YOUR LIFE OR OTHERS.


Me too Paul, Though I only thought about it and always managed to convince myself not to (I know that I could never "try" there would be no question of my being effective)

I do though do self destructive things at times.


God bless our predecesors. i belong to a presbyterian (usa) church which is not a more light church. i am well known as a transsexual. today i took a neighbor to church with me...a gay man...he was welcomed by all and enjoyed the service very much.

three years ago this church wasn't sure at all if i might fit there is no question. today there is one more church full of people open and accepting of "all God's children."

if we don't tell them who and what we are then how are they to know us? how are they to come to understand something they never see or never hear about?

the media representations of us are atrocious! i know people personally who were just plain shocked to find out i wasn't a sex-addict or a panty fetishist. they were struck dumb to find that i was a rather serious and committed follower of the same Lord and Savior of them all, stuggling to live up to His name.

that's how it's at a time.

thanks be to God. pj


I am proud to be a mom of 4 beautiful children, one of whom is gay.
From the moment he came out to me at the age of 14 my life and the lives of our family have been blessed. Because he is a blessing to our family. He, like my other 3 children, was beautifully, wonderfully and uniquely made by God.
My heart breaks for Mary Griffith and her loss of her son out of ignorance. I thank her for her strength and bravery to share her story.
My commitment to my gay son, my gay friends, gay youth and gay community is stronger than ever after watching the movie. There are many many Mary and Bobby Griffiths in our world today; Bobby's contemplating taking their own lives, and Mary's about to lose their children. I will continue to fight to save those lives for those mother's that cannot bring themselves to accept their children. Because they don't deserve to lose them. No one does.


The last half of last night's movie was really the most powerful. The first half very inconsistent. The family seemed disconnected to Mary Griffith's fundamentalism-- kind of just floating around.
But Penny Jane has it right, but I'm not so sure it is safe for teenagers to come out. Where will they go? I don't believe the gay and lesbian community really has the wherewithall to support kids once they are out on the streets. As a movement, we are not very clear about this. I do know as adults, you have to take as many social risks as possible, because social change comes out of personal friendships, not through the nightly news. Connection is real and it is one on one.
I think "Prayers for Bobby" is a good Bible and Homosexuality 101, and good for the average American family to watch, still the end was heartbreaking, and the part where the mother talks to the MCC pastor and is crying in that room with him just made me cry and cry too. It was really awful to see all that.


oh my what a day! we held an installment ceremony this afternoon for our brand spanking new associate pastor, rachael pederson. rachael came to us from doing mission work with the u.n. there were big wheels from her association with them here today...representatives from the national chruch, the presbetery of the ohio valley, her own home church from back in idaho and on and on.

all in all it was a most beautiful service, one of the best in my memory...began when rachael preached the sermon this morning at the regular service...her best yet and didn't end until all the hugging and hand shaking was over this afternoon.

it was rachael's day, we're all so very proud of her and believe ourselves to be especially blessed that we found her and she found us. but one thing stood out a little for me. when it came time for the "passing of the peace", where we all wish each other the peace of Chirst, the president of our presbytery, some 80 churches, came down from the lectionary and extended her hand to me. she called me by name and thanked me for some work i'd done for the presbytery a year or so ago. i cannot help but think that thanks to people like mary, and people like rachael..and just the common people like myself and many others...things are changing. perhaps God is answering the prayers for bobby...perhaps He thinks these prayers are about due for some fruition.

hold your heads up paul and mark...listen to the voices you've heard from amanda and beckie...listen to the voice of reason and common sense...listen to your own voice.

the man who preached the sermon at today's installation, a man from the united nations, quoted bishop tutu. paraphrasing, the bishop said that there is only one measure of validating the value of a man or a woman. this is that he or she was made by God, by His own hand and in His own image. "anyone," now i quote, "using another measure is full of....rubbish." this means you! you are made exquisitly by the hand of God and in His own image. your value is beyond calculation, you are loved beyond any measure you can concieve, you are prescious and adored. no man can belittle that which God has made, no man can judge you as you are made by Him. in the most eloquent and expressive language of the great bishop desmond tutu, that's "rubbish".

much love and hope. pj


If women are truly made in the exact image of god, then how come people still think of god as a "he?" Remember, male supremacy is based on co-opting god and making the male god too. When god is fully a woman, and we refer to god as "she"-- this of course includes men.... Hmmmm.
My antedote to the mention of the male god in public, is to invoke the goddess Kali, with her spear holding hostage any god who would lord it over women! It is the warrior goddess that comes in handy when battling the demons of patriarchy in all their forms.


i've written about this before, satsuma. if one is a christian and believes in the God of abraham and the ressurection of Jesus Christ then no warrior goddess is going to make the grade. we don't "choose" the God we believe in, we go where our spirits lead us.

i, personally, have no problem with our God being referred to in the feminine, it's just a valid as the male. God is at once either gender, all genders and no gender at your choice. for me, persoanlly, to femininze the pronoun flies in the face of my tradition and amounts to me feminizing God. that's not in my paygrade to do. i use "Him" only because it's the way i grew up and am not ready, safe enough, to make the change. politicizing God would be a humiliating experience for me...can't do it. but i can listen to anyone who long as they aren't changing the essence of God as i know Him in to a warrior goddess...that's another god, not mine.

much love and hope, pj


The movie almost ripped me apart, I to had so many problems with my mother and family that i almost killed myself, while i watched the movie i wanted so much to hug bobby. I was going through all that shit at the same time he was the only difference is I some how made it but so sad he did not. I didnt know bobby but i do love him now and his mother, i have very bad feelings for her, maybe she can forgive herself after she helped kill her son but i cant. I see shes doing good for gays but is that so she can live with herself now, think about it, she should been the one that jumped not that precious son of hers. Bobby your in my heart and mind now, and ill keep you there till i walk from this world..


A male god to me is blasphemy, it means that men think they are gods and that women aren't made in the image of god. This is the bedrock of male supremacy, it's how the whole system was created, and as a radical lesbian feminist, I would never listen to a prayer or go to any service that referred to god as "he" or "him" EVER! The only reason people aren't comfortable with god as a woman is because of patriarchal conditioning, in which men are raised up and women are degraded. It's the same mentality that said women had to suffer in childbirth because pain in childbirth was god's punishment (read god the male here)for the sin of Eve. And priests and ministers once argued that women using pain killers during childbirth was violating god's (male god again) law. I'm not kidding, this is what happens when men in pulpits (who actually believe themselves to be gods) are in charge of women's health concerns. I don't know of any minister who would argue that today, but who knows, given right wing Christian nutcaseness out there.
To me as a lesbian, I see this warrior goddess as my defense against a male god, whom I perceive as male supremacy and tyranny, the same kind of tyranny women suffer under when men are in charge. Since my goal is a world where women are equally in charge, and where women can go out at night without having to worry about rape, atttack or sexual harassment on the streets, the issue of who controls the gender of god is germaine to women's rights overall.
Remember, the whole point of male supremacy is to make men all powerful, to control the language so that the default position of human is male. I'm very hard line on this, and would actually throw a bucket of cold water on anyone who said "he" for god within my hearing! That's how strongly I hate male supremacy and male domination of god language. Feminism 101 -- guess we have to open up the class again! Or I visualize the warrior goddess actually beheading the rapist male god! This is war! And it is the backward thinking of calling god male that is completely and utterly offensive to my lesbian feminist ideals.


i hear you satsuma. i feel the bitterness of your frustration and indignation. i hear the righteousness of your position. i, too, have had to learn that walking around at night by myself is tantamount to painting a big red bull's eye on my back and it infuriates me.

but when you are talking of God, please don't throw a bucket of water on me...that's a pretty male response to disagreement, i think the trick is not to get God on your side, but to make sure you place yourself on God's side.

i think when you insist on God being referred to in the feminine you are doing just exactly what you are accusing men of doing, claiming God for yourself and against "the other". becoming what you detest is not the answer. we must teach, understand that there are biological conditions placed on us all. we can't lift men up by subordinating them, only by enlightening them. as homosexuals we won't gain understanding and integration by the majority, the decision makers, by claiming is better then straight..that just won't fly. we have no more inherent right to the front seat on the bus then they do, only an equal right.

men are different, they anger and frustrate us because they are so apt to throw their weight around without understanding that they really are 900 pound gorillas in the room.

when erin swensen was asked what she noticed most when she transitioned, she said..."i keep bumping into people." that's a reality. there are male and female places in the world. we share space with unconscious abandon. i'm not so sure we can blame that on culture, or if we do then all cultures are guilty. there is the collective memory we all have, it's more ingrained then how we are taught, it's inherent in our gender origin. i don't bump into people, i used to, but since i transtioned i do so much less frequently. i think that's an example of how early onsets are not affected by culture or any amount of teaching, we are what we are and there is nothing we can do about it.

i guess my point is, we do have a place in the world and it's not standing where the men stand, that's their space. rather then futilly invading that space, we can teach them that the space we're in is as real as theirs, and as important. by respecting their space, not fearing it or being jealous of it, we can teach them to respect our space, to shed a few pounds and watch where they step.

just my opinion, but what do i know? i'm just a girl.

much love and hope. pj


Why is it that when women refuse to compromise in their war on patriarchy that we are accused of being like men? I don't get this Penny Jane. I will not tolerate within my hearing distance any use of a male pronoun for god, never. It's why 99.999% of all churches out there are places of male worship, and not women's full uncompromised freedom.

It women are made in the image of god, that a male pronoun for god is an insult to our intelligence. Only women brainwashed by patriarchy will put up with this! Women need to fully connect with their place in divinity, with no compromise ever. Let me worship the female for 5000 years, let them hear god referred to as "she" and let them accept that of course we include men in this female pronoun! Reverse the stupid excuses of patriarchy and it always reveals what this agenda really is-- the disempowerment and psychological undermining of women! So I say, dump a bucket of water over the heads of the oppressors -- that's merciful.. men would have burned women at the stake and HAVE done this!! It is men who have killed women by the thousands and terrorized them with rape all in the name of a male god.


point taken...and i apologize, satsuma. that comment on male reaction was just as you say...not fair to either men or women. i was wrong.

still, though, i don't think repeating the mistake of the last 5000 years for the next 5000 years reversing only oppressed and oppressor status sounds like much of a plan to me. once justice has been denied it can't be corrected at a future time. all we can do is work for justice before the injustice occurrs. i don't think completing the justice equasion by committing equal and opposite injustice is a viable answer. for math it works just fine but people aren't intigers.

all people are worthy of equal justice. none of us is smart enough to decide for God which of His creations are of more or less value. if we believe, as do i, that God created each and every one of us by His own master plan then only He can judge the success or failure of the venture.

i will not re-define my vision of God in order to make Him appear more like me. that to me would be missing the boat, trying to make Him more like me instead of making me more like Him. i will use the male pronoun, because, to me, the pronoun doesn't amount to a hill of beans. if i change how i use it, without vision of why, then i ascribe import to the pronoun of my own view. i'm just not ready to do that, He will continue to be God to me until such time as i am convinced the He is a She.

as i said, i see God as both, any, all and no gender...using He just allows me to not worry about it...because in all my training it's what comes out naturally.

it's kind of like, to me, thinking about so many transsexuals taking voice lessons in an effort to make their voices sound more feminine. to me that's just a distraction. i'm far more concerned with what i say then how it sounds as to gender. if i'm concentrating on sounding feminine then i'm not concentrating on what i'm saying. backwards priorities to me.

besides, the "tranny voice" sounds so fake and plastic to me it's almost laughable.

i admire your passion and your perseverence. but just as dr king was concerned that stokely carmichael's anger and passion compromised his methodology, i am concerned that we too, have to potential to go overboard, generating a negative backlash. just my thoughts, not to be confused with wisdom or righteousness, just musings.


Ah Penny Jane there is hope for you yet. A freedom fighter is neither male nor female, but straight women have often been conned into believing they can't fight back with everything they've got. I am not an advocate of non-violence, since I see male violence every day. Men are very violent, they think they own women and that they own god. That's the patriarchal mind writ large, it's who they are. I believe men don't understant the cause of women's freedom and that men really only understand the sword. Just my opinion. They are forever clueless. It's just their inherent stupidity as oppressors.
I believe women have the right to self-defense and whether it is physical or verbal, it is power and women have a right to as much power as we can muster.
Martin Luther King thought it was fine to force his wife into homemaking, and to give away award money causing his family to suffer. Coretta King once had to beg for extra money to put new curtains in their home. Martin Luther King exploited and had countless affairs with women. He was a garden variety sexist, and we forget that male tryanny is about what these "great" men of god do in their own homes, and how the world covers for them. So there is this creepy idea that men are gods, and so language is very important. This idea of language and the power of naming was stolen from women. And as women we are claiming the power to name anything we choose to.
It's why I think christianity as it exists today is about exploitation, lies and dehumanization of women. It's why it tolerates the rape of children, it's why it thinks men have a right to own their wives. It's why it believes heterosexuality is superior to lesbian egalitarianism.
I recall many years ago, someone in my office came up with a math puzzle. For years and years I'd heard these math "story problems" and I always had a lot of trouble solving them. Then on this day, the illustration went something like this: "seven goddesses created seven swans, and the largest swan sman seven of her swan laps around swan lake..." something to that effect. Instantly, the answer popped into my head, and I solved this math problem with ease, to the amazement of my colleagues who couldn't solve the problem at all. I was struck by this huge intellectual break through. Couldn't figure it out, until I realized that for the first time in my life, I heard a math problem exclusively in female language, and not the he he he he the god had seven gods and all the male swans swam happily ever after.
It was this moment that made me realize that the male language needs to go, and that I want to learn to my fullest capacity. It's what made me realize I loved all women's spirituality groups, and no longer wanted to worship with men at all. Their male minds would contaminate the service and destroy the power of women, and that we should create something of our own.
We should discover all the daughters of god whom a goddess sent to earth, just like Jesus, only these daughters of god were killed. Herrod's army couldn't kill Jesus, but the other daughters were killed. We don't know this because this part of the bible has either been lost, burned or destroyed by male supremacy. Like the "discovery" that women were huge agents in herstory, and that women's studies was about half the human race, so to we have yet to find the sacred texts of women worldwide.
Men aren't able to understand this concept at all, because they believe only they are capable of history --HIS-Story literally.
This is the failure of all the "great' patriarchal religions worldwide, and as long as men paint god as male, the male will be god. It is my duty as a lesbian feminist to throw a rope over that huge statue of the male god in the town square and drag it crashing to the ground, just like the Berlin Wall was demolished. I believe women will be free when male supremacy is no longer allowed to function. It will be a world where men will not longer be able to enslave women, where rape will be punished with death, and where any crime against a woman will be treated seriously. There will be no room for the worship of tyranny under the "guise" of male supremacy. Like that math problem, it will create this renaissance of the female soul and mind such as the world has never seen before. And we must always realize that the male renaissance of Michelangelo may have ushed in a period of knowledge for men, but it marked the height of the witch craze in Europe where the women healers, widows, midwives and spiritual leaders were killed by the hundreds of thousands, burned at the stake, tortured by the same pornographic priests that are raping little girls today.
That is the HIS-story of christianity, and the renaissance. It's not a pretty story Penny Jane, but that is the legacy that we enshrine to this day in the male dominant religion of the church. I think you will have to leave that last vestage of the male brain behind to understand what this is all about. I'm never entirely sure if a transgender movement is about more male supremacy in new bodies, or if it is just a long acculturation process, very much like becoming fluent in Japanese, and then actually moving to Japan to see how real Japanese people use the language in a cultural context. Probably not the best analogy to transgender existence, but I do wonder why you defend male language so passionately if you left a male body behind. Or maybe transgender existence if about a conservative preservation of enslaved womanhood? I don't know exactly. It's just a suspicion I have, and maybe possibly a deeply engrained lesbian prejudice.


P.S. I seriously doubt that a world where women are free would ever do to men what men have done to us. We wouldn't be out in the street raping men, torturing them, prostituting them, or even beating them in our homes. Women have never done this to men as a group. It is men who have done this to women, men who drop the bombs, kill the children, terrorize the world. And maybe human evolution will simply phase them out, who knows. The opposite of women's freedom is not male slavery, but it is freedom of women. Men will be left to their own devices, and will have to do their own work. It is a waste of time to talk to men about feminism or the freedom of women, they're just too damn dumb IMHO :-) No doubt the men here won't be able to take this "joke" at their expense :-)


hi satsuma, thank you for allowing hope for me. i'm a big believer in same. i do not describe myself as "transgender", for alot of the reasons you mention. the "transgender movement" as you describe it is dominated by men. the fetishists, transvestites, drag queens and such. many profess their femininity, but i've found that there feminine expression begins and ends with how they dress, or what masturbation fantasies they have. many of these people use feminine expression as a form of humiliation which i find particularily disgusting. i am a transsexual, or one with harry benjamin syndrome...meaning i am a woman, born of male biology. i was never male, a penis does not a man make.

yes, i left parts of the male biology behind, the parts i could...and no, i'll never be "just another woman." i am a woman of another origin. but i have a female brain, always have and always will. my penis couldn't make me a man but my brain had no trouble making me a woman.

there is so very much i agree with you about...nearly all your detail. truth is, though, i trust power no more in the hands of the female then i do in the hands of the male. it isn't that man has the power instead of women that bothers me, it's that power isn't equally shared. i agree with you too that's it's virtually impossible for men to understand the affect they have on women by their indifference and ego...but it can be done, they can and some do "get it."

today's churchs are also beginning to see the light...i know mine is. we have two pastors, one male and one female..nothing written about that..just the way it worked out. our session is actually manned more by women then men (knew you'd like that one). off hand i do believe that more committee chairs are held by women then men. even our lithurgists are not determined by gender...or orientation for that matter. i'm on the rotation this year, will serve my first time on mar 8th. a gay transsexual woman will lead the congregation during service on that day.

i guess what i'm saying is that we don't have to make ourselves out to be them in order to change them. we don't have to be bigger, or meaner or more struck by our own power then them to make changes. it's happening as we speak. working the patriarchy out of the system can, and can only be done, in my opinion, by working through it...piece by piece, event by event. when people are willing to listen we need to speak and leave the hammer at home.

there are the rick warren's of the world, snake oil salesmen, con artists, have always been around...but more and more we're seeing them exposed, leaving the real teachers free to do their work.

yes, men are sexually driven creatures and will make almost any excuse to apease their natures. left to their own devices, just as we see so prominently among gay men, they will place sexual satisfaction above almost anything else in their lives. it's not that gay men are any more sexually driven then straight men, it's just that straight men are somewhat muzzled by their connection with women, gay men have no such of now. when we reach such a state of enlightenment as to choose to include gay and lesbians in the larger community then they too will have to adapt to a new long as we allow them freedom to obsess over their sexuality they will do so.

ok, i'm off track and it's time to go get my sweetie. so God bless us all with much love and HOPE. pj

p.s. my name is pennyjane, one word...but pj works just fine.


pj and satsuma, maybe you two should exchange emails so you can continue your conversation off-site?


I do agree with you about men's endless sexual obsessions. It was what I called the mutually assured destruction of the AIDS epidemic-- what happens when sexual excess never stops. Or as I like to call it, consentual mass murder.

Pennyjane, one word, always hard for me to do Internet grammar :-)

I've never found the abuse of power in all women's groups that I've found in how men run things. It's why I don't really like working with men, and don't think attempting to try to educate them on feminism 101 ever gets women anywhere. It is up to women, half the world's population to decide on a just society for themselves, and to create the spaces where they can talk and work this out. Whether it is on the Internet or in small communities, it is the job of women to create our own idea of freedom. It certainly would never look like the Castro circa 1978.


sorry to have offended you jessica. won't happen again. don't think i've seen any of your posts before, but still sorry to have invaded your space.

much love and hope. pj


Why is it when women speak out with power on the Internet, folks always want to censor! Just how common is a radical lesbian feminist point of view in a very male dominated pornified world? This is serious business, women are dying because of what men do, and need strong voices more than ever. And I especially saw more raw woman hating sexism coming out of this election year than ever before. Gay men were worse than the Rick Warren's of the world, and this needs to be documented. It needs to be nailed to the doors and shouted from the roof tops. Yes, this is hard stuff, patriarchy is the greatest evil the world has ever come up with, and it is destroying the world. I'm merely the messenger, but I believe and authentic lesbian centered woman centered spiritual revolution is always in progress. I find it ironic that gay men get so mad at the religious right, but then are just as sexist as straight men are gay phobic! So I won't be silenced by anyone and that's a challenge! You'll probably do it anyway, but I don't see many lazy bums posting here to begin with, and then we have the whiners come in when women do post! Not impressed. Come up with your own ideological comparisons, end sexism, end the erasure of lesbians, do something!! But never ever tell a lesbian to shut up!! We explode with anger over this, and don't give ground. Remember, we carried the double ax into battle, we terrorized the Roman armies, and we will rise again and again as long a patriarchy kills, rapes and destroys women in male centric religions!


hi satsuma. i guess we can carry on. seems as if all jessica had to say was griping because we care enough to speak.

jessica, instead of griping about what others are saying, why don't you get up a conversation yourself? why gripe at us for taking up space when you have nothing to say? i mean, it's not like someone is holding a gun to your head making you read our's the problem?

join in or....don't worry about those who do.

much love and hope. pj

Jeremy lee

I would really recommend this film cause it shows someone who really comes from a religious stance and has to face and find the truth about God and her son's sexuality - she really searches and the journey though - difficult to watch at times, as it was so real, got the messages across - fantastic aid to stop persecution of LGBT people and fight against the hatred of some of the christian community - using someone from their community. I was so moved


Well the first thing that I would like to say is that Jesus loves all of us we have all sinned and fell short of the glory of god. What this movie is doing is blasphemy a homosexual will not enter heaven and I'm not saying this of my own knowledge the bible speaks clearly about sin (sexual sin) and all sin, just like a liar or drunk and nonbeliever won't see the kingdom hhomosexuals won't please don't be fooled by your own devices. God can forgive and is willing and happy to forgive all sinners if their hearts truly desire to change god can lift any demonic force that causes anyone to be fooled by evil ways god will forgive your sins even when you are in homosexuality as long you have the desire to change your ways and not practice homosexuality anymore. God is good and pure and moral please don't try to corrupt him and lead people astray; and also if that law comes that says that we can't tell someone it's wrong to be gay I guess they are going to have to keep me in prison for life because as long as god gives me life I will speak the truth and it's not to hurt anyone it's because god is love and he wants all his children in his kingdom and I will speak for god even to the drunkards and liars and thieves..etc. I am not a saint and I sin all the time just like everyone els but I ask god to forgive me and try not to commit those sins anymore even though I do commit them again I still ask god to forgive me and try with my might to mean it so I'm not saying it's just gays that are sinners we all sin.

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